Rorate Caeli

Urgent/For the record:
Le Figaro - "Rome and Écône on the verge of reaching an agreement"

From major French daily Le Figaro, in an article signed by its main religion correspondent, Jean-Marie Guénois:

Rome and Écône on the verge of reaching an agreement
by Jean-Marie Guénois

Updated on April 13, 2012 20:37 (1837 GMT)| published April 13, 2012 19:45 (1745 GMT)

The signing of a document establishing relations between the Holy See and the disciples of Abp. Lefebvre is a matter of days.

Officially, the Vatican awaits the response of Bp. Bernard Fellay, the head of the Lefebvrists. As soon as it is received in Rome - "it is a matter of days, and no longer of weeks", - it will be immediately examined. If it conforms to expectations, the Holy See will very quickly announce a historic agreement with this group of faithful, known under the name of "integrists".
But unofficially, and with the greatest discretion, emissaries have worked, on both sides, to "reach an agreement". In the past few weeks, the final adjustments have been concluded between Rome and Écône in order to better respond to the demands of "clarifications" asked for by the Vatican last March 16.

A very delicate negotiation 

It is thus that the final response of Bp. Fellay, very well pondered and well prepared, should settle - this time, for good - a very delicate negotiation which was relaunched by Benedict XVI following his election, in 2005. 


The "Ecclesia Dei" commission, sheltered within the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the most important ministry in the Vatican, is in charge of this dossier. But it is also, at this point, personally followed by Benedict XVI. And he wants an agreement. 
Which allows for the consideration, by well informed persons, that a positive outcome will truly come into being. Even at the cost of the permanence of profound disagreements regarding the Second Vatican Council.


Disagreements completely accepted, besides, by the Pope. He has placed his pontificate under this line of reinterpretation of the Vatican II Council. Following two axes: emptying the spirit of "rupture" of '68 and avoiding opposition between the highest tradition of the Church and modernity.

Fifty years of opposition

On Monday, Benedict XVI will reach 85. He is tired. His entourage do not hide this. He has had to rest this week in Castel Gandolfo from his exhausting voyage to Mexico and Cuba, then from the long services of Holy Week. He should be back in the Vatican on Friday evening. As a priority on his bureau: this decision on the Lefebvrist affair. It will be one of the weightiest of the pontificate.

For fifty years, the Lefebrvists have stood in opposition to the Holy See regarding Vatican II. And in formal juridical rupture since June 1988, when Abp. Marcel Lefebvre ordained four bishops despite the Pope's interdict.

Joseph Ratzinger was placed at the time by John Paul II in charge of the negotiations with the rebellious bishop. He has never accepted that failure. Nor, once having become the Pope, the prospect of an enduring schism in the Church.

Benedict XVI compels the Church to reconcile with herself

One after the other, Benedict XVI has demolished, with all his papal authority, the obstacles that prevented a full reconciliation with the disciples of Abp. Marcel Lefebvre.

And, if a final agreement is announced in the upcoming days, the essential part of the work was already put in place by this pope:

- The reestablishment in 2007 - as an "extraordinary" rite of the Catholic Church - of the Mass celebrated in Latin, that is, according to the Missal of John XXIII in force before the Council.


-The removal, in 2009, of the excommunications which fell on the four bishops ordained by Abp. Lefebvre.

-The launching of the doctrinal discussions between the Holy See and the Fraternity of Saint Pius X, in that same year, regarding the Second Vatican Council

The apparent failure of the latter, one year ago, had given the impression of a complete failure of the negotiation. 

The doctrinal disagreement between the Lefebvrists and Rome regarding the Second Vatican Council was effectively abyssal. But it had been forgotten that the object of those conversations was not finding an agreement, but establishing the list of divergences and of their reasons.

It is therefore knowingly and, thus, without any ambiguity, that Rome intends to seal this unity found once again with Écône, stronghold of the Lefebvrists in Switzerland.

It will probably be done with the creation of a special statute - a "personal prelature" - already experienced by Opus Dei. This structure grants a true autonomy of action at the same time as the Catholic faith is shared. Its superior answers directly to the pope, and not to the bishops.

But the true "revolution" that Benedict XVI intends to leave before the eyes of the history of the Catholic Church is elsewhere. It is not related to peripheral aspects of the Catholic Church. These have already enraged the groups opposed to this reconciliation. The so-called "Progressives" of the Conciliar Church who see the "gains" of Vatican II questioned. The "ultras" within the Lefebvrist ranks who see in this a betrayal and a compromise with Modernist Rome.

This revolution aims for an enlarged vision of the Catholic Church. Benedict XVI, the theologian, has never accepted that in 1962 the bimillennial Catholic Church would have cut herself from the culture and strength of her past. More than a reconciliation with the Lefebvrists, he aims, with this gesture, for a reconciliation of the Catholic Church with herself.

[Source; tip: contributor. For Guénois's previous takes on the matter, see our translations of his posts at the time of the September 14, 2011, meeting and at the time of the March 2012 meeting.]

76 comments:

Lopes said...

I assume Parish Coordinator Tricia will not be too excited about it. She may even tell the Archbishop that SSPX priests are not welcome in Seattle at all.

David said...

May God grant that it be so!

Francis said...

This is truly a great day. We will all have time to critique, worry and complain about this new agreement in the future. For now we should just give thanksgiving that Our Lord, through Our Lady and through the intercession of Archbishop Lefebvre have given grace and wisdom to The Holy Father and Bishop Fellay and others to reach this agreement after fifty years. Let the slow restoration of Catholic orthodoxy and tradition begin.

P.K.T.P. said...

While this report shimmers with positive feelings, we must sip our tea and turn to prayer. This is all entirely speculative. I never thought the day would come when I would tell *others* not to speculate, given my record for doing just that, but there is a reason. Speculations may or may not be vain but they should be grounded in at least some evidence, however little. These are grounded in none at all. Yes, we have known since 1988 that this Pope wants an agreement. We also know that Bishop Fellay wants a just agreement. But all the rest is empty. Since we do not know the content of the Doctrinal Preamble or any of the interventions regarding it, there is just no way to predict what may come. And if something does come, we don't know how the Left will react or how the hardliners in the Society will react. We don't know how they'll react because they themselves don't know.

Just pray. Go to Mary and ask her to go to her divine spouse, the Holy Ghost. I am asking for the intervention, this time, of the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity because it is the Holy Ghost Who inspires hearts, and this is needed on both sides.

P.K.T.P.

Ligusticus said...

Lopes, maybe there is already someone who fears the very same Tricia will be appointed as "Personal Prelature Cooordinatrix" for the eventually "reconciled-with-Conciliar-Rome" FSSPX.

(Naturally, I'm kidding.. Risus paschalis!)

P.K.T.P. said...

Francis:

With all due respect, no agreement has been reached. Let's celebrate if and when we can, and not before.

I watch the papal appointments keenly each morning, before heading off. There have been virtually none since Lent. None this morning, none yesterday, maybe one or two this week. The Pope is said to be tired and is resting at Castel Gandolfo. Pray that this come to a successful conclusion while there be time for it.

P.K.T.P.

happyhockeymom said...

Perhaps the Pope should appoint Cardinal Burke head of the CDF first. Then announce an agreement with the SSPX.

What a week that would be! And give the liberals heart palpitations!

Our Lady, pray for us!

Ferraiuolo said...

Now is the time! This is the battlefront! Pray and storm heaven! Exterminatrix of all heresies, pray for us!

Mike said...

It took decades for Opus Dei to obtain the proper juridical framework. This might take more than a few days, even, I realize, as some souls have waited nearly a quarter of a century!

While I hope that the SSPX will sign an accord with the Holy See, and soon, as PKTP rightly says, pray to the Holy Spirit! He is the source of Unity in the Church...

I am a child of the 70s...what happened then--the throwing over the side of true and holy teachings and liturgy--must never happen again.

New Catholic said...

Apologies for any possible translation mistake, this was done as quickly as possible, in United-Nations-interpreter speed... Send corrections (and TIPS) to newcatholic AT gmail DOT com . Thanks!

Anonymous said...

Oh Senor nuestro y Dios nuestro, que inmensa alegria!!!!!!!!!!!Padre amantisimo, Jesus mio, Spiritu Santo,Santisima Virgen maria, San Jose, Santos y Santas del Cielo, hacedlo posible!!!,haced que esta noticia se haga realidad.

Lautensack said...

I am still a bit sceptical about the practical implications of it. I think that even a personal prelature is not allowed to do any 'outside' apostolic work unless they are invited by the diocesan bishop - so what happens if the diocesan bishop tells his confreres in the newly-regulated SSPX that he does not want their services in his diocese?

St. Michael the Archangel's little friend said...

"Veni Sancte Spiritus". . ."Bp. Fellay [Superior General of the Society] will not speak on this matter (note: the letter sent to Rome) before the Holy See's response is known".

Silence is the language of Humility freeing the soul to adoringly listen: "Speak, Lord, for thy servant heareth."

May Eternal Wisdom illumine and strengthen Their extraordinary servants, the Vicar of Christ and H.E. Bishop Fellay, who have been ordained from all Eternity to serve the Holy Trinity with their humble "Fiat voluntas tua" echoing Incarnate Wisdom's.

Ora et Labora said...

I am grateful to Our Lord for this news, I think we will have a positve outcome to this, and so I continue praying let us all do the same let us say our Rosaries, and let us say the St. Michael's prayer continuously so that the negotiation in this coming days or weeks between the Holy See and the FSSPX be guarden from the enemy and his minions.

Let us all call on the Blessed Mother and the Holy Angels and Saints, there is much work to be done, but we need to see this this reaching to an agreement first.

Let us also pray and hope that the FSSPX WILL ASK FOR A ORDINARIATE and let ALL of US PRAY MOST ESPECIALLY FOR OUR HOLY FATHER BENEDICT XVI yes it is true he looks frail and tired MAY OUR LORD GRANT HIM THE WISDOM AND STRENGTH NEEDED TO DO HIS WORK AS THE VICAR OF CHRIST, AND LET ALL REMEMBER THAT THE ONE WHO IS TRULY IN CONTROL OF THE DESTINY OF HIS CHURCH IS OUR LORD HIMSELF.


LAUDETUR JESUS CHRISTUS!!!

MARY HELP OF CHRISTIANS PRAY FOR US!!!

BLESSED ANGELS AND SAINTS PRAY FOR US!!!



p.s. I feel very encourage by this news May the God's Holy Will Be Done!!!

M. A. said...

La cigüeña de la torre is reporting that Bishop Fellay has said "no" to signing the preamble:

"Pero que de aceptación del Preámbulo, no."

http://www.intereconomia.com/blog/cigueena-torre/los-lefebvristas-dicen-que-no-20120412

beng said...

I shall intensify my prayers and mortification.

God helps us all.

Brian said...

unofficially, and with the greatest discretion, emissaries have worked, from both sides, to "reach an agreement". In the past few weeks, the final adjustments have been concluded between Rome and Écône in order to better respond to the demands of "clarifications" asked for by the Vatican last March 16.

NC, Is this information reliable?

More than a reconciliation with the Lefebvrists, he aims, with this gesture, for a reconciliation of the Catholic Church with herself.

I pray that our Holy Father makes such a proclamation.

Alsaticus said...

Jean-Marie Guénois, who was in the past rather reluctant with Traditionalists, has evolved under this pontificate positively.
On the talks between the Society and Rome, he has always voiced optimistic arguments.

Maybe this time, it is not a remake of 1988, 2001-2002, 2008. Let us pray for Guénois to be right.

GQ Rep said...

"happyhockeymom said...
Perhaps the Pope should appoint Cardinal Burke head of the CDF first. Then announce an agreement with the SSPX. "

It is well know in Rome and elsewhere that the Pope wants a fluent English speaker as Prefect of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Believe it or not, some are calling it the Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office" again!!!!

Although there is a small possibility of Burke getting it...and he would probably be the absolute best choice, it isn't likely. Pell has a better chance but he is a bit old.

Let's all pray harder, that that German they keep talking about doesn't get the job.

You all know who I am talking about....I forget his name :)

Elizabeth D said...

Lautensack, I believe my own bishop will want regularized SSPX in his diocese. It would be wonderful to have the problem of having regularized SSPX and then having to sort out how they and the bishops can cooperate well. I hope that problem can be created ASAP, in other words that there will be a regularization of SSPX asap.

Elizabeth said...

Lord, let it be so!

And Lautensack, I pray that your impression of personal prelatures and how they're able to operate is incorrect! If that is the case, the good Bishop Fellay surely knows it already and would perhaps resist.

Marty-Jude said...

Bishop Fellay has previously warned against listening to reports other than those released from the 'Mother House'.

Whilst all is exciting and apparently hopeful, I think we sould continue to pray 'fiat voluntas Tua' and Hope in God's mercy that the time is ripe for Him to Restore The Church.

I feel it is safer to wait for the Vatican [vatican.va] to make an announcement, followed by Bishop Fellay/Menzingen.

God bless us and save us!

St.Joseph pray for our Holy Mother Church!

Francis said...

If this agreement between Rome and the SSPX is only days away like this article says then I can't believe that the Holy Father would appoint a devout modernist and heretic like Bishop Muller to head the CDF. I have no proof to back this up and this is just my opinion but I would bet that Bishop Fellay and his representatives must have been reassured by the Pope or his subordinates that Muller will not be the next head of the CDF. I wouldn't be surprised if the SSPX reps were told who the Pope will appoint, to help make this agreement possible.

P.K.T.P. said...

Bishop Fellay has already said that it will not be a personal prelature, but these airhead journalists keep re-circulating their ignorant notes, over and over and over again. It will not be a p.p. Period.

As for the rest of this nonsense, i is pure speculation from an Italian source, to match the pure speculation from the French source.

P.K.T.P.

Tim said...

"La cigüeña de la torre" has already changed its prediction:

No es tan negro...

Scoob Dog said...

Wow, what a way to blow the whole thing out of alignment. Rome asked for clarification, and the SSPX is delivering by the deadline. How does this mean that an agreement is imminent? Nothing will have changed.

Knight of Malta said...

Regularization of the SSPX would be a boon for the Church; an adrenaline-shot, so to speak, for the Church, which is currently on life-support.

Michael Davies, a friend of then Cardinal Ratzinger, said he was a friend of Tradition. I know he was also a Peritii at VII, and liberal in some ways, but Davies' claim also seems to be true.

Think: one of the last acts of this great theologian, before he meets his Maker, is to regularize FSSPX into the body of the Church, much like an antivirus!

JMJ Ora Pro Nobis said...

I want to know what is going to happen to all the religious families aligned with the SSPX? Are they going to be received back into their respective orders (if any), allowed to be their own 'reformed orders' or told to do what the sons of the most holy redeemer had to do?

That is what most concerns me.

Matt said...

Are our prayers, our million-plus Rosaries to our Blessed her on the verge of being answered?

Deo gratias sed fiat voluntas Tua!



Lopes said, "I assume Parish Coordinator Tricia will not be too excited about it. She may even tell the Archbishop that SSPX priests are not welcome in Seattle at all."

I would say on my own for the good Archbishop, "Too bad, so sad. Not your call... b---h!"


PKTP said, "We don't know how the Left will react or how the hardliners in the Society will react. We don't know how they'll react because they themselves don't know.

Just pray. Go to Mary and ask her to go to her divine spouse, the Holy Ghost. I am asking for the intervention, this time, of the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity because it is the Holy Ghost Who inspires hearts, and this is needed on both sides."

This is very true and all prayers should be earneset in this regard.

As far as the libs, who knows what they they will do insofar as the power they may be able to wield, but in regards to immediacy of this very great matter, the hardliners within the SPPX is something to be concerned about more than the libs and their bunched-up knickers. I think the hardliners are more able to create problems for the Society than the libs would. IMO, who knows.

Prayers,

Matt

Peterman said...

God bless our Holy Father. He has done so many great things already. When the story came out a few weeks ago that he had exorcised two men at Saint Peters just by blessing the crowd I believed it, absolutely. This type of thing popes have done in the past. He is truly Christ's vicar and he has pushed this regularization against all the advice of the liberals at the Vatican.

Hildebrandus said...

Let me see if I have this correct: For 50 years they've been de facto schismatics. After a signed accord coming 'in days', they are back in the House of God with a personal prelature, to boot! Hardliners within SSPX remain, well, hardliners, and they say "NO"! So, we then have a splinter of the splinter. Do we then excommunicate them? -- and start the process all over again? I have suffered too much within Holy Mother Church, enduring St. Louis Jesuits music, Bozo & Balloon masses, deacons preaching about canonizing Protestants, pizza and coca-cola masses (I walked out, thank you!) --- And after all that, I get to welcome back the SSPX? Caritas Christi urget nos, but there will have to be a LOT of 'urget nos"!

JTLiuzza said...

Hildebrandus said: "For 50 years they've been de facto schismatics"

That is not correct. As for what happens internally within the SSPX, there is nothing to be gained by wringing hands over speculation.

Let's please see what actually occurs in the coming days and pray, of course.

Gratias said...

The Holy Father has been trying to achieve regularization as the main aim of his pontificate. Benedict XVI is truly a great Pope. The pressure against this happy reunion must be enormous. Hopefully this will come to pass and then Catholics can rejoice.

We must also realize that the Church will be a big tent and that the modernists are not going to give up. I think the Anglican Ordinariate was a precursor to this agreement, as were Summorum Pontificum and the lifting of the excommunications. Pray for the Holy Father and Bp. Fellay.

Ora et Labora said...

Ora et Labora said...
I am grateful to Our Lord for this news, I think we will have a positve outcome to this, and so I continue praying let us all do the same let us say our Rosaries, and let us say the St. Michael's prayer continuously so that the negotiation in this coming days or weeks between the Holy See and the FSSPX be guarden from the enemy and his minions.

Let us all call on the Blessed Mother and the Holy Angels and Saints, there is much work to be done, but we need to see them reaching an agreement first.

Let us also pray and hope that the FSSPX WILL ASK FOR A ORDINARIATE and let ALL of US PRAY MOST ESPECIALLY FOR OUR HOLY FATHER BENEDICT XVI yes it is true he looks frail and tired MAY OUR LORD GRANT HIM THE WISDOM AND STRENGTH NEEDED TO DO HIS WORK AS THE VICAR OF CHRIST, AND LET ALL REMEMBER THAT THE ONE WHO IS TRULY IN CONTROL OF THE DESTINY OF HIS CHURCH IS OUR LORD HIMSELF.


LAUDETUR JESUS CHRISTUS!!!

MARY HELP OF CHRISTIANS PRAY FOR US!!!

BLESSED ANGELS AND SAINTS PRAY FOR US!!!



p.s. I feel very encourage by this news May God's Holy Will Be Done!!!

13 April, 2012 21:59

Bartholomew said...

Jordanes:

(From the third paragraph from the end): "It will probably be done with the creation of a special statute - a 'personal prelature' - already experienced by Opus Dei."

To All: While I pray that an agreement with the Holy See is imminent, I would warn against the alliance between leftist journalists in Europe (allied with the left-wing Vatican bureaucrats AND perhaps even Opus Dei) raising false expectations -- and then capitalizing on those raised expectations when the rumors (which they invented) fail to come to fruition.

In other words, eventual news of "failed efforts" between Rome and the FSSPX (which they floated without sufficient cause) will enable these leftist media activists to inflate both pessimism and rancor.

Bishop Fellay said to trust ONLY those reports coming out of Econe.

porys said...

Do you remember how long waited for issuing Summorum Pontificum Cura? Every few days media gave information: "yes, yes - liberation of TLM during some next days". And it took just 2 years since election of Pope Benedictus XVI.

GQ Rep said...

"Anglican Ordinariate was a precursor to this agreement,"

I don't think you can rank the Anglican Ordinariate, a miniscule and obscure event in the Catholic Church which had enthusiasts only among an equally miniscule number of faithful, to the enormous event a reconcilliation with the SSPX would mean for the Church. The SSPX would bring to the Church a tremendous energy and vitality that the Roman Catholic Church used to have world wide...before Vatican II.
I don't know if they would all follow the lead of the SSPX (even though they are loyal to them), but there are close to 50 monasteries, friaries, cloisters, and religious Orders of tradition that would be brought back into the Catholic Church as well. Traditional branches of the Benedictines, Carthusians, Discalced Carmelite nuns, Dominican friars and nuns, Capuchin friars, Poor Clares, and three dozen other Orders of apostolic, contemplative, missionary, or strictly cloistered monks and nuns, friars, priests and brothers.

The Anglicans under the Ordinariate are, like it or not, still practicing their Protestant traditions using their Protestant books if I am not mistaken, which many Catholics find appaling. Their attraction and support among the larger Catholic community will be negligible...wheras the support the SSPX will trigger will be overwhelming. The progressives and radicals will be furious!!!

THeir day is over, and they know it.

Ora et Labora said...

GQ well said, I agree completely with your comment on the Anglican still practicing their Protestant traditions.

P.K.T.P. said...

G.Q.:

What are you blathering about. If it is about jurisdictions, the form of an international ordinariate would work, whereas a personal prelature clearly will not. What matters is the character of the juridical beast, not who happens to benefit from it.

As for the Anglicans sitll following Protestant books, you are greately misinformed. First of all, their Book of Divine Worship is far more Catholic in character than is the New Roman Missal. Secondly, in England, at least, most are using the N.O. anyway. These are Anglo-Catholic Anglicans, and the Anglican parts of their prayers have long ago been deCranmerised. Get your facts straight. I happen to know that a number of those in the Ordinariates will be using the freedom afforded by that structure to offer ... the Traditional Latin Mass, and they can do so without the interference of the local bishops, as they are not under their authority.

P.K.T.P.

someone said...

http://pius.info/archiv-news/874-zitat/6614-den-glauben-aller-zeiten-bewahren

Today on the website of German district of SSPX. It seems to me not to be only an incident.

Let us pray for the Pope, because everything is now in His hands and don't forget about cardinal Levada also.

May God give the Pope courage and strenght and the light of the Holy Spirit!

Immaculata, ora pro nobis!

Who can, take the Holy Communion today for Pope and this case. Tomorrow is a big feast and Our Lord told sister Faustina that He will be very generous that day for those who will pray Him. :)


Pray and wait! :)

Ligusticus said...

I didn't imagine the Guenois' news would have been so emphasized the following day on the first page of the paper edition of his Figaro...


http://lequotidien.lefigaro.fr/epaper/viewer.aspx !

Francis said...

Well folks,
The neocons are already on the attack.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/296013/religious-liberty-under-attack-michael-potemra

P.K.T.P. said...

Gratias:

Thank goodness for your good sense on this blog. Yes, the Anglican ordinariate structure is far better than the personal prelature. Only a complete ignormamus--or a traitor to tradtion--would suggest the p.p., given the terms of Canons 294 and 297. They are restricted to deacons and priests of the secular clergy (bye, bye, monks and nuns!) and require permission of the local Mahoneyite bishop to operate in his see (imagine the reaction of Abp. Jordan of Rheims or Pepe of Las Vegas to *that*: they'd jump for joy, and we'd be destroyed). Opus Dei makes it work only because they have two structures working in tandem: Opus Dei itself and the Prelature of the Holy Cross. That can work for them because their focus is pastoral, not liturgical. They can do 'the Work' wherever they like but cannot have Mass wherever they like. That is NOT our situation.


Better than an ordinariate, however, would be an international and personal diocese under Canon 372, Section 2: the Campos structure, in other words, writ large, writ international. The problem with this is that it would likely violate the terms of concordats with several critical countries, these being France, Poland, Austria and Argentina, and perhaps a few others. One solution is that Rome could ask for a change in the terms of those concordats. I have reason to believe that a change has already been effected in one of the concordats, but I'm not sure of the details.

The other way, which should work, would be an Apostolic Delegature, in which the communities and the S.S.P.X would be directly subject to the Pope and governed through an Apostolic Delegate sitting at Rome and perhaps regional delegates where they are needed. In other out-of-the-way places having few or no apostolates, they would be governed through the papal nuncios.

In this system, Bishop Fellay would answer directly to the Pope not as Bishop of Rome but as Universal Father, as Pope; he would be subject to the Patrimony of the Pope. The religious orders affiliated with the Society could be associated with it and subjected to its leadership. The Society itself would be a society of apostolic life of papal foundation.

This might work because all the concordats must recognise and accept the immediate authority of the Pope over the Church as defined in Pastor Æternus.

Some might say that the p.p. structure can work if the Pope merely exempts it from one provision of Canon 294 and one provision of 297. However, this would make the structure de facto equivalent to a diocese and that would, yet again, violate the terms of concordats. (True, there could be a p.p *under* a Delegature but that would make the prelature not important: what counts is the Delegature, then.) I'd go for the Apostolic Delegature of the Pope. Just try to alter the terms of the concordats with France and the French bishops would intervene against the Pope. Mind you, Sarkozy would probably love to defy them and deny them. It could be fun in that way.

P.K.T.P.

Evagrius said...

GQ, you are very mistaken about the Ordinariate.

Nuno CB said...

Can anyone tell me when was this Pope picture taken?
The Holy Father is wearing very beautiful paraments, with the special Coat of Arms, which rarely comes out in public.

P.K.T.P. said...

Nuno, I don't know if you've noticed, but, on that coat of arms appears, the papal tiara! It's true: there's no sign of that hideous mitre put there by some crank liberal in 2005.

Whoops! Careful, Joseph: you're colours are showing!

P.K.T.P.

GQ Rep said...

Sorry, I have been informed by a friend of mine that the Anglicans in the Ordinariate are not even allowed to use their Protestant books...everything must conform to Roman Catholic traditon and teachings. They may use parts of their prayerbooks, but not the distinctly Protestant elements.
So I was mistaken.

It is unfortunate, however, that they are still allowed to have married clergy. I realize of course that when they were Anglican "priests", they were already married. But I hope that when/if ever a seminary is set up for the Anglican usage, from the very start it is made clear that priests are to be celibate.

Tomorrow, I am off to Canada for a photo shoot for three weeks...and from what I have heard, the Catholic Faith has been wiped out as badly or worse there, that here in the USA.

The radical Catholics don;t like the new Archbishop of Quebec, so maybe that is a good thing!

Let us pray for all Catholics everywhere, that the return (hopefully) of the SSPX will greatly foster a rebirth of the Faith everywhere!

FGA said...

GQ Rep
“I don't think you can rank the Anglican Ordinariate, a miniscule and obscure event in the Catholic Church which had enthusiasts only among an equally miniscule number of faithful, to the enormous event reconciliation with the SSPX would mean for the Church.”

While there is no doubt in my mind that the restoration of FSSPX to its rightful place within the structure of the Church (if indeed it should happen) is one of the most wonderful things to happen to Holy Mother Church in my lifetime, your petty and incorrect observations regarding the Anglican Ordinariate are not worthy to spoken, much less printed. If there is “joy before the angels of God upon one sinner doing penance” surely the opening of the Ordinariate and the impending return of so many should bring any child of God great joy.

“The Anglicans under the Ordinariate are, like it or not, still practicing their Protestant traditions using their Protestant books if I am not mistaken, which many Catholics find appalling. Their attraction and support among the larger Catholic community will be negligible...whereas the support the SSPX will trigger will be overwhelming.”

I expected to comment on this statement also, but must admit I am at a loss as to how to respond to such a hateful, ignorant and profoundly unchristian sentiment.

Ora- am so saddened to see anyone who could agree with GQs' statements.

I can only imagine that rather than rejoicing and granting encouragement to your children as they took their first stumbling steps you O so righteously beat them for there falls. Sad, sad indeed.

Confusius said...

Please do let us pray for a good outcome. Everything seems to suggest that a resolution is about to be announced. The same people in the Vatican who sabotaged the Pope's good will gesture when he lifted the Excommunications are even now contemplating ways to forestall this reconciliation at the last minute. Pray for the Holy Father's safety. The wolves are not happy, and beginning to think that they have nothing to lose.....

Roger Buck said...

Re two posts:

Nuno CB said...
Can anyone tell me when was this Pope picture taken?
The Holy Father is wearing very beautiful paraments, with the special Coat of Arms, which rarely comes out in public.

14 April, 2012 13:28
P.K.T.P. said...
Nuno, I don't know if you've noticed, but, on that coat of arms appears, the papal tiara! It's true: there's no sign of that hideous mitre put there by some crank liberal in 2005.


PLEASE can anyone tell me/us more?

When/how this change came about?

It is very very interesting!

stmykearchangel said...

My prayers are with both the Holy Father and Bishop Fellay. The Church needs the SSPX, and the SSPX needs the Church! Everyone please pray!

T.Rex said...

History fascinates me, especially as it unfolds in the future. I wonder if Bishop Fellay might subsequently be named Archbishop and perhaps even Cardinal. What dynamics might this bring into the selection of the next pope? even in the future developments of the Church?

This is not an endorsement or an opposition on my part--just a consideration of the events that might follow a reconciliation and establishment of a new canonical identity for SSPX.

Knight of Malta said...

PKTP, thanks for your always informative posts, 372:2.

I agree this is vastly preferable to a PP, but I would almost prefer a PP inasmuch as it was established by Vatican II--the irony!

(of course I'm kidding)

Gregorian Mass said...

Continued prayers for the Holy Father and Bishop Fellay. When the Preamble is signed and is hopefully made public I also pray it shines a new light on Vat II Council and its' documents and where there was ambiguity, it will now be clear. These doctrinal discussions and their outcome will bear much importance for people who have been confused for many decades. Priests and lay people alike.

P.K.T.P. said...

On G.Q.'s latest comments:

G.Q., thank you for correcting yourself on some of these things. It shows a very decent and honourable humility.

On the issue of marriage, while A.C. does make provision for some married clergy in the future, restrictions on this are to be decided by Rome. It is likely from the text that most ordinariate priests in the future will be celibate. In this first wave, the Pope is bringing over those who are already married and otherwise qualify to be priests. The norm is to remain a celibate priesthood.

P.K.T.P.

Louise said...

Talking about the Anglican Ordinariate, Someone told me they asked one of it's members if they had to accept Vatican II, the response was "certainly not, if we had had to accept that then we would have remained Anglicans." One law for them and another law for the rest of us!!

Augustinus said...

"Can anyone tell me when was this Pope picture taken?
The Holy Father is wearing very beautiful paraments, with the special Coat of Arms, which rarely comes out in public.

14 April, 2012 13:28
P.K.T.P. said...
Nuno, I don't know if you've noticed, but, on that coat of arms appears, the papal tiara! It's true: there's no sign of that hideous mitre put there by some crank liberal in 2005.


PLEASE can anyone tell me/us more?

When/how this change came about?

It is very very interesting!"

That mantle was worn by Pope Benedic XVI on June 28, 2008, for First Vespers of SS. Peter and Paul, during which Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople was also present.


http://whispersintheloggia.blogspot.com/2008/06/who-is-paul.html

To the best of my knowledge that papal mantle was never worn again.

Augustinus said...

"Someone told me they asked one of it's members if they had to accept Vatican II, the response was "certainly not, if we had had to accept that then we would have remained Anglicans." One law for them and another law for the rest of us!!"

The clergy of the Anglican Ordinariate celebrate the Novus Ordo (the special Anglican Use has not been approved yet, only the calendar), copiously cite John Paul II and his magisterium, and I've certainly read more than a few Anglican Ordinariate clergy citing Vatican II.

Hugh said...

'known under the name "integrists" and "Lefebvrists" and so on. Such a jaundiced disapproving narrow view.

Nuno CB said...

I do know that the Pope appeared a few years ago to pray the Angelus in his office's window and the mantle that was coming out from the window had the tiara in the coat of arms, but never knew that the Pope appeared again in public with it.

By the way, check how it is in the Vatican gardens: http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/WCkJ2gBlXU_LDpD0n82YZQ

GQ Rep said...

"I expected to comment on this statement also, but must admit I am at a loss as to how to respond to such a hateful, ignorant and profoundly unchristian sentiment."

To explain myself alittle so I don't come off as a bigot, I'm not.
I have nothing against Protestants, as such. But I have experienced alot of bigotry for what my family and myself are both religiously and ethnically at the hands/mouths of Protestant "christians"
I'm now 31, but almost 6 years ago, to celebrate my little brother Shoshiru's graduation from highschool, my parents took him (and the rest of my family including my Grandmom), on a summer trip down South to visit Civil War battle sights and other points of interest in that the Civil War period is my bro's favorite period of USA history.
We were in Virginia mostly, but also in N. Carolina, S. Carolina, and other states, as well as Washington DC. We visited about 25 major sites associated with the Civil War.
While in Virginia, we stopped off at a small town to get something to eat (I won;t mention the name of it). It was a sleepy, small backwater town steriotypical of the South. Despite it's small size there were at least 10 churches in town....all Protestant, and all Evangelical of some type. No Catholic.
Imagine the shock on these peoples faces to see eight Japanese come thru the doors of "The Hot Spot" restaurant. It suddenly became as silent as a library when we walked thru the doors. We felt immediatly unwelcome.
Afew of these people made snide comments which I heard. The term "Gook" is a derogatory term for Korean people, but that's what we were called when we were being seated. When one of the typical "Bubba" type guys saw the Rosary around my sister Keiko's neck (but under her blouse), there was a string of hardly disguised anti-Catholic slurs.
After lunch, while my Mom, Dad, and Grandmom relaxed as best they could over desert, my brother Shoshiru and I, and another brother took a stroll around the center of town. Afew good ol' boys followed us . I guess they thought we were secretly terrorists.
Like I said, there was a church on nearly every corner. My brother Shoshiru was naive enough to ask these guys if any of them were Catholic. To which one Bubba shouted " Jap and Catholic huh?" And then he shoved my brother and spit. My brother is small,but I am 6' 2" and in good shape. When I came to my brother's aid, another guy started a fight with me. I won't go into details except I taught him a lesson...but the cops were called. They did what was right, but you could tell they were put off by us 8 Asians too. Guess they thought we were moving in and ruining their neighborhood....LOL!
I've had other dealings with Protestants other places too, but not as ignorant as that.
But anyone who just because of Vatican II and ecumenism thinks that it's all love and best friends between Catholics and Protestants...think again. Among their rank and file...nothings changed.
So I'm not a bigot etc. per se. I just have had experience with anti-Catholic sentiment from them, and have no liking for the idea of our Church becoming like them.
I just wouldn't want any part of who they are in the Catholic Church. That's all.

Malta said...

GQ,

I hear your pain, my man, as I am a southern Catholic (read Rising Road to see how anti-Catholicism is ingrained into the fabric of the south). Ironically, some of America's greatest writers are southern Catholics (think Flannery O'Connor and Walker Percy).

But Santorum's acceptance amongst protestants in the south should give rise to hope.

My southern friends have a gentility lacking in many parts of the U.S.

FGA said...

GQ Rep,
Please forgive what must have seemed a harsh response to your comments. I am truly saddened to hear of your horrible experiences in the south. No one – NO ONE – should ever have to experience such treatment. I too have experienced prejudice; I have traveled many, many places and trust me, no one area, people, race, tribe or tongue has a pure record. Unfortunately humanity is in a sad, sad state and what they need is our love and our prayers. Surely you can see how much those persons with whom you interacted need to be converted, how much they need to know the truth.

“But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you: That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven…”

Please do not think I am quoting this scripture because I think I am so good as to live up to its call. Unfortunately like all the rest of us I am a work in progress; all the more reason to pray, to forgive, to gather in and embrace all who will respond to the truth.

One last note, I myself am a convert. I converted because the Catholic Church is the One Holy and Apostolic church founded by Christ. It is the Ark outside of which no one can be saved. Inasmuch as this is true, I am second to none in my outrage over converts who do not really convert. Many “famous” bloggers and so called apologists are in this category and it makes me ashamed. Unfortunately Vatican II seems to be doing a fine job of making protestants out of Catholics so it is not just the “unconverted converts” that are to blame.

All this to say – let us remind one another to live up to the Catholic ideal. Let us work and pray for the conversion of protestants - within and without the Church - and to that end let us continue to pray for the full restoration of the Society of Saint Pius X to the heart of the Church and the elevation of Archbishop Lefebvre to the honor of the Altar.

GQ Rep said...

Malta:

Thanks for your support, and the tip to read Rising Road. I know not all Southerners are like the guys we encountered in Virginia...actually they're probably a very tiny minority. There were alot of great people we met too!

P.K.T.P. said...

Augustinus:

No, not quite right. They do have an approved Rite for Mass and other liturgies: The Book of Divine Worship of 1983, granted for a small number of Anglican incomers in the U.S.A. (8 parishes). It is now being used throughout the American Ordinariate and by a very small number of priests in the English one. This text will soon be reformed, as it has problems. For example, the prayerbook bits come not from the traditional American Episcopalian Prayerbook of 1928 from from a souped-up modernised version of 1979. A cmte. has been formed to revise it. In the meantime, it is used and they do with pleny of smells and bells.

In England, about 98% of them use the N.O. for Mass but say it in a special way.

P.K.T.P.

Matt said...

Is this one of those "too good to be true" moments? In true hope, could it be we are the ones able to see this historic moment of the SSPX's return and yet enjoy the fruits of it as well?

We can only hope and pray still.

It's April 15, after 9:00AM in Rome. Do we think it will be their "today" or our tomorrow? I hope someone in authority is standing by that designated fax machine. I think someone from the Society is already there in Rome ready to hand that wonderful letter to the Holy Father's delegate. This is a totally anxious weekend for True Believers.

Matt

Matt said...

Jordanes551 said, "It doesn't say anything about a personal prelature."

Good. I hope not. A prelature is worthless for the SSPX. It deals with governance and is not canonical; an ordinariate is, as it pertains to jurisdiction which is needed for the Society.

Matt

Tom said...

I am surprised that our bishops, at least in recent days, failed to urge prayers for peace between Rome and the Society.

At the very least, tomorrow's Novus Ordo Masses could have included said prayers during "Prayers of the Faithful."

Tom

Adfero said...

I can't believe I have to say this to traditional Catholics, but vulgarity will never get published here. Please don't try it.

Gratias said...

One can still read the scenario written by P.K.T.P for this very situation in 2008 by googling "the Gregorian mass Perkins". It comes up in second place and is very interesting.

Matt said...

Well, no news yet. Roman April 15 has come and gone. Was there actually something definitive about this date? Anxious weekend.



Tom said, "I am surprised our bishops, at least in recent days, failed to urge prayers for peace between Rome and the Society.

At the very least, tomorrow's Novus Ordo Masses could have included said prayers during 'Prayers of the Faithful.'"

Really, Tom? Do you really think they care? Bruskewitz of Lincoln, or Finn of Kansas City-St Joseph, maybe.

IMO, I think most bishops see this reunion more as a threat to themselves and their idea of the Faith rather than a joyfully momentus occasion.

Matt

Peteman said...

Anon Tom said...
"I am surprised that our bishops, at least in recent days, failed to urge prayers for peace between Rome and the Society.

Which Bishops would be praying for this? This issue matters to traditionalists because we fully comprehend what it means for the Church. In the Novus Ordo world I think they try to inore the entire issue completely.

Also, if you were to ask a NO Bishop if he is happy that a Traditionalist group could now (potentially) set up shop in his diocese and he could do nothing about it, I'm sure he wouldn't be overjoyed about this.

IF such a situation occurs, these same bishops will have nobody to blame but themselves because they literally stifled the TLM for all these years. The stifling comes in all sorts of clever ways as we all know such as pushing the TLM off until 4pm Sunday or claiming that "there aren't enough people interested" to have a weekly TLM.

Alan Aversa said...

Andrea Tornielli has written a similar article yesterday (original, translation; source: MiL).

Jordanes551 said...

Jordanes: (From the third paragraph from the end): "It will probably be done with the creation of a special statute - a 'personal prelature' - already experienced by Opus Dei."

Sorry, I skipped over that part, Bartholomew. That's why I get for trying to comment "on the run" . . . .

Anyway, if the SSPX is reconciled and regularised, it's unlikely to be erected as a personal prelature. As often explained here, that would be unhelpful, as it would allow a local ordinary to keep the SSPX from operating lawfully within his territory.

Alan Aversa said...

Certainly read John R.T. Lamont's "A THEOLOGIAN'S QUESTIONS" written "expressly for www.chiesa".

Alan Aversa said...

Also, check out some of Lamont's The Thomist articles:

"DETERMINING THE CONTENT AND DEGREE OF
AUTHORITY OF CHURCH TEACHINGS
" 72 (2008): 371-407
"CONSCIENCE, FREEDOM, RIGHTS:
IDOLS OF THE ENLIGHTENMENT RELIGION
" 73 (2009): 169-239


He's certainly a Gherardinian.